A Candid Conversation (Part 2)

Mel: When I used to frequent chat rooms one of the criticisms I often encountered is that you have a bad temper and that that therefore disqualifies you to be a teacher or a nagual. The other criticism making the rounds is that you labeled yourself a 'Nagual' out of the blue. What's your thoughts on that?

Della: *LOL* Let's talk about a bad temper first. For the most part, I only have a bad temper if someone provokes me over a period of time. I've used the analogy before that if you poke at a dog long enough, eventually it will bite you. You may then blame the dog and wail to anyone who will listen that you were bitten by a mean dog and it should be put to sleep immediately; or you can take responsibility for your own actions - i.e., you provoked the "attack", which is really a matter of self-defense. Don't want to get bit? Don't poke the bitch. Simple logic. *heh* I think 99.9% of the people I know and work with on these forums would say I'm pretty patient even if not entirely tolerant of bullshit. And normally those who complain the loudest about someone else's "bad temper" are the leading CAUSE of it in the first place.

Now, in a more general sense and to answer your question directly, does that disqualify me as a teacher? That's not really for me to decide. I've said often on my website that you may easily discredit the messenger, but the message will remain. In my opinion, focussing attention on personality flaws in a situation such as this is rather like fighting in a burning building. I have what many consider to be valuable knowledge that I'm willing to share. To me, THAT is where we need to be focussed - on what we can do for one another, what we can learn from one another, what each of us brings to the table. Fact is, a LOT of so-called "shamans" or "naguals" or "seers" are mad as hatters, but that doesn't alter the fact that they ALSO have valuable knowledge. It isn't required that you like them or even that you believe them. But trying to shift the focus from the message onto the messenger is pretty self-defeating, and generally tends to reveal the agenda of those doing the shifting.

Mel: What about don Juan? Wasn't he a pretty level-headed guy?

Della: Don Juan is a character in a book. Maybe he existed "in the flesh," but I seriously doubt that. Doesn't mean he didn't exist - simply means that he was either a composite of many people Castaneda met in his journeys; or (my personal read on it), don Juan was Carlos's double, whether Carlos ever knew it or not. My guess is that he DID know it but only somewhat "later in the game", long after DJM had burned with the fire from within. Anyway, point is that whether DJM was a man or a myth, he is a CHARACTER in a book. He is written in a certain way to appear how the writer WANTED him to appear. And even he lost his temper a time or two, as I recall. *LOL* Now we would dismiss all of his teachings because he lost his temper a few times, but why would we want to do that? Throw the baby out with the bath water. And if you want to get into myth, there was that little tantrum Jesus threw when he tossed the money changers out of the temple. So, I guess Jesus has a bad temper, too, and everything he ever said should therefore be dismissed.

Thing is... it's easy to discredit any messenger. And I make a point of giving people sufficient ammunition to "discredit" me if that is their goal. I'm no saint, and I'm no paragon of sweetness & light. It always amazes me when people want to talk about ME instead of the far more pertinent stuff we could be discussing. Then again, for as long as people can divert their attention from the work, they have succeeded in disabling themselves - and with what they would even consider to be a Righteous Cause! Amazing. And sad as well. While they're off rattling their swords at imagined demons, time is slipping past them. And the eagle just waits with a smile.

Mel: Okay - what about the nagual thing. What's all the hooplah about that?

Della: Damned if I know! *LOL* The title of my book is QUANTUM SHAMAN: Diary of a Nagual Woman. I'm not the first person to apply that title to myself, either. I resisted it for years because of the baggage it carries - labels are like programs, and tend to invite trouble - but when I decided to write the book, I finally gave in and decided to accept what I had known for years. Now, with that said, being a 'Nagual' is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. What it really means is that a nagual has the four energetic compartments instead of the traditional two. The reason for this, as I've found in my own experiences & research, is that it has to do with the double being more or less "born" at the same time the humanform self is born. I've talked about this quite a bit in other places. But ultimately, it's just like being born with green eyes or blonde hair - it's just an "attribute", meaning nothing in and of itself. So to say I'm a 'Nagual' is not very different than saying I'm a female. You're either born with that attribute or you're not. What you do with it is what matters.

[NOTE from Melancholy Man: After our conversation ended, I was able to track down several links to these threads. After re-reading them, it really dawned on me how silly all of this other stuff really is. There's so much more we could be doing here. So I am going to encourage you to read these posts too.]

The Double vs. Double Beings
Why Do Double Beings Exist?
The Dual Assemblage Point

Continuing the dialogue...

Mel: So what I'm hearing is that you're not attached to the label?

Della: Not at all. The label was attached to me and I guess it threatens a lot of people. Not my problem, except that while they're trying to discredit me, the clock is ticking.

Mel: Why do you think your critics are so adamant about this?

Della: Well, it's mainly three or four people who have formed their own little consensus - based largely on the ramblings of one of those 'enlightened' drunks. That's how factions get started and they're altogether ridiculous in spiritual arenas, because the bottom line is that if you don't like what a teacher or a nagual or a passing hermit has to say, so what? Go your own way and walk your own path and get over yourself. Trying to tear someone else down reminds me of the Crusades - where a bunch of overgrown boys ride off into the unknown to lob off the heads of infidels. Translated, kill anybody who doesn't agree with you. Problem is... with forums AND with crusaders, most of them don't even know WHAT they believe. They only know that they feel threatened, and so they react with violence. Nothing new there.

Mel: What seems kinda wonky to me where forums are concerned is that the threads that have some potentially eye-opening content are virtually ignored in favor of troll threads.
Della: You noticed that, too, didja? *LOL* It's easier to fight than to learn. Bottom line, human nature. That's why I'm more or less done with these forums for the time being.

Mel: You don't feel you're learning anything from them anymore?

Della: Not lately - probably not in a few years.

Mel: That surprises me.

Della: Why? Forming the foundation of ourselves may be a lifelong process in one way, but in another way it only takes a few years at most to strip away the programming and face ourselves in the mirror. That's what the process of assimilation is all about. Once we've built our foundation through the work of the journey (however that manifests will be different for everyone), we come to that point where we test our knowledge, see if what we have learned is viable of not. For me, that process occurred largely at the old Delphi forum, and only marginally here at TSW.

Mel: This intrigues me. Are you saying there's nothing more to learn?

Della: No, not at all! I'm saying that I've tested the foundation of my knowledge, and the foundation holds. It's always expanding, always revising itself - that's the process of living, and hopefully living as impeccably as I can. Orlando pointed out something of interest recently -

"You may begin to realize that your process of interactive assimilation is finished when your peer group stops challenging your knowledge and begins challenging your personality instead." (Orlando, 2008)

That probably should have been obvious a long time ago, but like I said... I'm slow. *LOL*

Mel: You said recently that you felt TSW has become a "dead zone." What are you planning to do about it?

Della: Nothing. It's there if people want to use it, and if they don't, it'll just quietly dissipate and that'll be that. No great loss - it's completely unimportant in the scheme of things. I figured out a long time ago that things have their "time" and when that time is up, it's just up. If TSW's "time" has passed, no big deal. It depends on the people who use the forum - it's really not up to me at this point.

Mel: What about your own journey? I mean, what are you doing these days outside of cyberspace?

Della: You mean there's life outside of cyberspace? *LOL* Actually, I'm working on the idea of transmogrification, rather heavily. A couple of other very sharp warriors on my private list have contributed a lot to that effort, and it's one of those ongoing projects, one of those things we struggle to wrap our minds around, because often it's when we UNDERSTAND something that we enable ourselves to DO it. Easy enough to just dismiss it and say, "Oh, but that's impossible, Della!" But it's only when we can allow the impossible that we really tap our personal power and find the will to do all sorts of things once believed to be impossible. Every day I turn on this computer and talk to people all over the world, I'm reminded of my old days as a Star Trek writer when all of this was considered "science fiction." Well, the future has manifested because a few people out there were willing to allow the impossible and went to the bother of creating it.

Mel: Are you talking about transmogrification in the sense of stepping into your double, becoming an inorganic being?

Della: In a manner of speaking, yes. But it's a complex subject. Last night when I was meditating, I received this huge "download" of information through gnosis having to do with transmogrification. *heh* I call it a zip file - meaning that the file downloads instantly, but it can take months or even years to completely unzip all the data and apply it in one's own life. That's where The Future is for me - working with gnosis and my own personal zip files.

Mel: Out of curiosity, is gnosis something that can be taught? What I mean is that I hear you talk about it often but I get the sense that a lot of people either don't understand what you're saying or else they have no reference point.

Della: I dunno. I can only go on my own experience. Once I finally isolated "the place of silent knowing" it became relatively easy to shift my AP into that position and even hold it there most of the time. To me, that's the natural way of things. But if somebody has never found that AP in the first place, they might not even believe it exists. The internal dialogue is a master of convincing us that we're impotent slobs at the mercy of fate. But we are really the most powerful beings in the universe - once we get beyond the idea that we are the most powerful beings in the universe.

Mel: Okay girl, it's 3 am and I'm going to turn into a pumpkin.

Della: We are all one pumpkin?
___________________

NOTE from Melancholy Man: In hindsight as I was preparing this chat transcript to be posted, it really struck me that when we can talk about the path as we were doing toward the end of this chat, the whole energy changes and shifts the assemblage point to a more outward cone of energy, it expands our awareness in other words. So here's the thing... we have all of this knowledge at our fingertips, in the form of one another and our personal journeys. A good friend of mine (I would dare to call him a Nagual) once said, "Hey Mel, you can focus on the sky or you can walk along with your head down 'cause you're worried about stepping in dog shit."

Maybe I'm just an incurable optimist but I wonder what we could do here if we all started focusing on the sky instead of looking for dog shit.

____________

Thanks to Melancholy Man for his efforts in attempting to save me from myself. :)

All written material in this blog (essays, rants, poetry, et al) unless otherwise indicated, is copyright © by Della Van Hise, and may not be reprinted elsewhere without the prior written permission of the author. Quantum ShamanTM is a trademark of QuantumShaman.ComTM and reserves all rights.

A Candid Conversation

The following is an "interview" that began as a private chat between myself & a good friend - "Melancholy Man." It was never intended to become a matter of public record, however after some further conversations with Mel, I relented and allowed him to post it to my forum, The Sorcerer's World - since it was his contention that this is the stuff people NEED to hear but don't WANT to hear. Not sure I agree with that, not sure it matters. But since he was so adamant about it, I figured... what the hell.

Too many people think spiritual enlightenment or spiritual evolution is about sitting in a dark cave contemplating the navels of sages, but that hasn't been my experience. It's about getting real with ourselves and taking responsibility for our own lives. It's about not blaming your teacher if you fail, and most of all it's about the cold, stark realization that no one CAN do this for you. So, with that said, this "interview" follows in the wake of some recent turmoil stemming from my own personal run-ins with The Boozer & The Loser - my own personal devils, my personal detractors. *LOL* Thanks to Mel for pushing me to "speak out even when you're cussin' like a sailor." Something to be said for that.

****************

Mel: You've made some major changes to the forum. Think it'll make any difference?
Della: Probably not. Doesn't matter, of course. The forum is just something I created for my own use in the beginning - a way to work through my own assimilation. Later it evolved into whatever phases it has gone through. It will either sink or swim entirely on its own merit at this point. And that's perfectly okay.

I'm not sure when these forums went from being a learning tool to being some sort of warped substitute for living one's life! And that's not the half of it! When you really start examining the dynamics of what's going on, you'll discover in most cases that a lot of folks aren't the least bit interested in any sort of spiritual evolution or learning or sharing their path.

Mel: So then what do you think their motive is for being here??

Different motives for different people, I imagine. My biggest detractors have always been what I've come to call The Boozers and The Losers. Over time, they have become a paradigm for a much bigger picture. Bottom line - the boozers are troublemakers and rabble rousers. Call them trolls if you want. Call them Agent Smith - a living belief system, mouthpiece for the consensus reality whether they realize it or not - upholders of the status quo, preachers of the program, or conduits for whatever they happen to be reading at the time. Google gurus, in other words. I've often joked that it's Underwater Sunshine Enlightenment this week, and Astral Entanglements for the Sexually Dysfynctional next week. Lots of them like to claim they are Toltec practitioners and may quote don Juan by chapter and verse, but they appear to know only the intellectual applications and none of the experiential. Armchair warriors are a dime a dozen.

Mel: I remember a discussion from a while back when it was hinted that this kind of behavior may be even more sinister than that. What's your thoughts on that?

Della: Well, in a way it IS sinister - there are people who hang out on forums not really to promote spiritual evolution, but to make sure that nobody ELSE can do so either. They're the ones constantly asking questions like, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Everything to the boozer is a potential argument - because that's what boozers do, and that's their currency. They thrive on anger, hate & discontent. Their goal is distraction, dissipation & diversion (the 3 D's). They go to a bar (forum), they get drunk (literally), and then they start throwing bar stools just to bring attention to themselves. They may try to disguise their rabble-rousing as a "challenge" to others on the forum (usually the admin or moderators), but even after the admin/mods have answered their questions, they just keep hammering with the same questions - until eventually the forum deteriorates into some sort of weird Romper Room for the Terminally Stupefied. No answer is good enough, and so it becomes a circular, downward spiral into pointless minutiae which is the trademark of the "enlightened drunk".

One thing I learned was not to take myself too seriously when I'm drunk, stoned or under the influence. Another thing that seems patently obvious to me is that if someone can't get through the day without being drunk, they clearly have no respect for themselves, so their 'spiritual' opinions become suspect. But just to be perfectly clear on this: it's not the person I dismiss here. It is the conclusions and the "opinions" they form as a RESULT of their drunken stupor or drug-induced haze. Everybody is certifiably brilliant when they're stoned. Just ask 'em! And yet, above all else a warrior has sobriety. Now you can cut that and dice it any way you like. You can say, "Don Juan didn't mean that literally!" But... if not, why say it? Doesn't mean you can't have a drink once in awhile. But if ANYTHING interferes with your natural sobriety as a matter of course on a daily basis, chances are you assemblage point is so skewed that you need to be on an AA forum rather than a forum about spiritual enlightenment. Another ugly truth. Sobriety first, THEN enlightenment. Seems to be the general order of priorities.

Mel: Does anybody ever really 'lose' if they are seeking so-called spiritual enlightenment?

Della: There are seekers, and then there are PROFESSIONAL seekers - those who like to pretend they are looking for enlightenment, when they are really only looking for cheap entertainment. These are the losers - who are more or less just the mouthpieces for the boozers - i.e., they are the yesmen & women who get dragged into the drama and what ends up happening is a choosing up of sides - as if spiritual evolution is all about who's right and who's wrong, as if it's a battlefield like something out of the ancient Crusades. "If you don't believe what I WANT you to believe, I'll lob off your naughty bits!" How childish! That's part of what this whole "battle" has been about that's invaded The Sorcerer's World from time to time. A certain group would be a lot more comfortable if I were to say I'm not a teacher, not a nagual, not a seer, not a sorcerer, and so on. Why it MATTERS to them so much is an issue that might bear some examination, but obviously that's not where their interests lie. They're still functioning under the delusion that stalking is about stalking others instead of stalking oneself. *shrugs* No cure for that, except time. And even then, most who are of that mindset never overcome it.

Mel: Okay, let's be honest here. Going back to the Romper Room analogy... it could be argued that you yourself allowed that to go on for a long time.

Della: True. I'm slow!Took me a long time to realize that there is truly no hope for hopeless individuals. Ugly truth. Very nasty ugly truth. One I don't want to acknowledge. But there it is, staring me in the face. I've been a teacher in other areas of my life - taught women's self-defense, writing classes, Tarot reading, achieving gnosis, and several other things. When I would see somebody struggling or frustrated or angry, I always felt that if I could just explain myself a bit better, they might grasp what was being put forth. So my nature is to nurture - though I have to admit that these forums have more or less disabused me of any such notions where trolls, boozers & losers are concerned! *gotta laugh* Bottom line, I kept thinking that a couple of the "losers" were genuinely struggling to understand something, but that was never the case at all. Their primary interest was to discredit the messenger in the hopes of discrediting the message. Smoke and mirrors - divert attention from what matters onto trivial personality wars. Oldest trick in the loser's book.

Mel: What do you mean?

Della: Lot of history here that would take more time to get into than it's worth. Suffice it to say that my Numero Uno Critic used to be a follower who ran around calling me his guru, despite repeated attempts on my part to disabuse him of that idea. One day he got pissed off at me when I questioned him about something, and quite abruptly I became the devil incarnate. He makes a lot of noise saying I didn't live up to his expectations, but that's the funny thing - all of that comes AFTER-the-fact that this person got pissed and suddenly needed to dredge up a lot of excuses as to why this was MY fault rather than perhaps his own previously unrecognized attachments. Typical manifestation of humanform denial. When you fail in your journey, by all means blame the teacher! Blame ANY teacher! Blame ALL teachers! Blame, blame, blame! One only needs to ask, "How's that werkin' fer ya?"

Mel: Don't we all have expectations of one another?

Not if we're truly on a spiritual journey toward evolution. I can't evolve for you; you can't evolve for me. Maybe we can't even help one another in the process - jury's still out on that one. I'm not here to live up to anyone's expectations and I believe I've made that quite clear. Someones doesn't like my teachings or my opinions or my ideas, you're under no obligation to remain. You ARE free to question, even to challenge - but once your questions & challenges have been met, it's over. Move on. Either you will accept the answers to your questions or not. If so, take it to the next level. If not, there's the door, with no hard feelings. But continuing to hammer the same questions just reveals the agenda of the questioner. The end result, if it is allowed to continue, is that the forum becomes crippled - which, unfortunately, I allowed to happen a couple of times around here. And it's one of the primary reasons I asked you to moderate the public aspects of TSW, since I know you are a bit more ruthless with would-be trolls than I have been.

Mel: So why do you think trolls seek out spiritual forums?

Della: Who's to say? Maybe they start out sincere and lose their way. Maybe they need someone to blame when they get lost. What's funny is that losers seem to NEED to try to discredit those whom they themselves decided were their "teachers" - even if no such arrangement ever existed. People have made comments to me like, 'I thought So-and-so was an apprentice of yours! That's what he said!" Well, people say all sorts of shit. I can't be responsible for their delusions or their anger when they suddenly get smacked upside the head with the realization that this really isn't some role playing game. I'm not don Juan. Never said otherwise. I feel I have quite a bit to offer in the way of experience, and maybe that makes me a teacher. If that bothers you, or threatens you or in some way disturbs you... obviously there is no obligation for you to remain here. Period. That's the part I've never fully understood. Why do these folk want to hang out and keep battering away with the same old shit? Reminds me of a kid in a store who keeps throwing the same tantrum over and over. "I want that toy and if you don't buy it for me, I'll hate you!" Translated to forum lingo, "I want enlightenment and if you don't give it to me I'm going to beat the shit out of you with words!"

Jeezus Harold Christ! When did spiritual pursuits turn into who's going to kick who's ass??? Last I heard, spiritual evolution & enlightenment are not really arrived at via violence - whether emotional or physical. Enlightenment is a process, and evolution is a movement of will over a period of time. The rest is pretty much tonal bullshit - stuff we wade through because we are human and cling to the status quo of that label. One of the most difficult traps to climb out of is the one that tries to tell us, "We are already perfect. We are already enlightened. We are already buddhas." Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows better! Anyone who has been on a path of spiritual evolution for long enough to have learned to *see* not only knows better, but *sees* the trap inherent in that line of thinking. We all have potential. Some of us use it. Others never will. But believing we are already "there" is nothing more than abdicating responsibility. It's like saying, "We are all doctors! So I'm going to go out and start practicing medicine even though I never spent a single day in medical school." Same logic - and the results speak for themselves.

Mel: At the risk of sounding like a critic, don't you think some of what you're saying here is negative?

Della: *LOL* Of course some of it is negative! Life isn't a parade of rainbows and sunshine despite what the bliss ninnies would have you believe! That's one thing about the Toltec path that I value, though. It never tries to pretend it's anything other than what it is. To anyone who truly *sees*, things exist in balance. But in the HUMAN world, that balance is kicked out of whack by agendas, dark motives and role playing games - the favorite turf of boozers & losers. When I first started hosting a forum back in 2000, I was a lot more naive, so maybe it would have seemed I was a lot more forgiving or positive or "fluffy". In reality, how I see it from my perspective now is that I've learned a lot about people as a result of these forums. And I've learned a lot about myself. My patience is long, but not infinite. And my tolerance for gamesters & self-appointed gunslingers is zero.

Mel: Let's talk about bliss ninnies. Aren't they harmless? And if they're harmless, why would you care what they think or say or do?

Well, for starters, I don't see them as harmless. Quite the opposite. When the building is on fire and the rafters are crumbling all around, a bliss ninnie will stand in the middle of it all and say, "Yes, but it's a dry heat! And aren't the flames lovely!" Am I being facetious? Maybe to a point, but not by much. I think that someone who sees the world as sweetness and light is every bit as deluded as someone who only sees darkness & despair. But my personal beef with bliss ninnies is that they want everyone to see the world through the same rose-colored glasses they're wearing - and may the gods help you if you don't! But no matter. Let's just say that I think bliss ninnies are all fine and good but they really don't belong on a forum about spiritual EVOLUTION - because evolution is a difficult task requiring impeccability, commitment and - most of all - clarity. We won't evolve by shoving sugar up our nose or blowing smoke up one another's ass. We will evolve only by seeing the world and ourselves for what we are - and that simply cannot be done while wearing rose colored glasses.

Mel: So where do forums play into that?

Della: To be honest, I'm not sure they do. At least not anymore. There was a time when I had my old forum back on Delphi that I think things were a bit different. People actually seemed interested in sharing tales of power and learning from one another's experiences, instead of just playing the game of who's the better warrior.

Mel: Who's the better warrior? I've heard you use that before. What - exactly - do you mean by that?

Della: Oh - you know. It's the game the boozers & losers play when they run out of any other sort of ammo. If they can't win an argument, they put on their warrior mask and point the finger at everyone but themselves. "You're self-important!" Or, "You're just indulging!" Some of them create entire costumes for themselves - like a couple of the self-proclaimed "Della-bashers" out there. Gimme a break! While they're worrying about ME, they are completely ignoring their own path. Who cares what Della thinks? Hell, even *I* don't care half the time, so it always amazes me when some idiot starts running in circles trying to rally others to hate this teacher or disregard that guru or dismantle the teachings of some other guy who perhaps has a website about enlightenment. In their ruthless pursuit of "false teachers" they are doing nothing more than rattling their sabres for... ??? What? Truth, Justice & the American Way? A Unified Field Theory? Don Juan's left testicle? What?

Most times, they will claim they are afraid of being seduced into a cult or some such - which, of course, is a hysterical manifestation of that very self-importance they are railing against. Let's face it. Most cults don't really go out recruiting because they don't really NEED to. In most cases, someone who gets suckered in by a cult is LOOKING for a cult to get suckered into. Who's to say why? Loneliness, low self-esteem, lack of self-confidence. Hell, I've been accused recently of being a "cult leader" - which always makes me laugh. Yeah... right. Show me my cult. Show me the throngs of adoring followers. *LOL* Show me my Rolls Royce and my bankroll of hundred dollar bills and my assembled band of handsome young men gathered at my feet ready to peel me a grape and fan me with palm fronds. Yup. I'd like to see that cult!

You want to see a cult, go look at the Catholic Church or the Mormons or any other organized religion. Just because they are larger doesn't make them exempt. THERE is where you will find the real cults - and far more dangerous than anything you are likely to uncover on the internet. You want to talk about minds being wiped and lives destroyed? Look at any Christian in the throes of his or her religious experience. And then take a look at the prejudice, bigotry and hatred that is touted "in God's name" by any and all of these major religions. There's your cult.

Mel: What about Castaneda's cult? Amy Wallace's book claims he had quite a harem at one time.

Della: Oh, I have no doubt of it. But like I said - people who get suckered into cults are usually looking to get suckered into cults. These weren't "innocent" young women just looking for true love. They knew who CC was, and if they had two brain cells to rub together, they knew EXACTLY what kind of man he was. If they didn't, well they probably found out pretty quickly. At that point, they can either stay or leave. He certainly wasn't holding anyone prisoner. Again, look at churches if you want to see people held prisoner! As a kid, I was blasted with the program that said if I didn't believe in the xtian god, I was going to hell. If I didn't go to church, I was going to hell. If I didn't proselytize, I was going to hell. It was madness - the fear-based religions that steal not only our mind, but potentially our soul. Sure, cults can be a danger - but far LESS dangerous than organized religion.

And, bottom line, if you are worried about being suckered into a cult, use a bit more of your common sense and a bit less of your self-importance and ask yourself why a cult would want you in the first place. *LOL* Are you all that? Do you have tons of money to donate to the leader? Sure, we would talk about Heaven's Gate and their comet starship fantasies, but the bottom line is that nobody forced them into that cult. It was their choice to join on and their choice not to leave when they saw the inner workings of the madhouse. Why did they stay? Why did they eat the pudding? Who's to say? Maybe they believed in their great cause or maybe they just desperately wanted to belong, even if it meant dying to do it. Personally, I think people who fall into that kind of cult are somehow "damaged" in the first place. Yes, it's sad. No, it's not my fault. And neither you nor I can save people from themselves. So - worrying about getting suckered into a cult is rather like worrying about getting hit by falling debris from the space shuttle. Either could happen, but neither is likely - particularly if you don't choose to be standing at ground zero.

Mel: Maybe some parents are afraid their kids might get influenced by some of the stuff you've published on your website, or some of the things in CC's books, or whatever. Isn't that a legitimate concern? Kids can take things too literally for their own good.

They might just as easily mistake the works of Stephen King or Anne Rice for reality, and start running around acting like vampires or zombies. They might put on Star Trek uniforms and try to beam themselves up to the Enterprise, too. Can't censor the whole world out of fear of somebody believing they can fly after reading a Superman comic.

I don't have kids because I CHOSE not to have kids. Not saying my choice has to hold for anyone else, but it seems to me that if I DID decide to have kids, it would be up to ME to police them, and not to expect the whole world to watch out for them. Be that as it may, it just seems that we can't "protect the children" except through educating them. If you're afraid of your child getting caught up in a cult, by all means educate the child about the nature of cults - and don't then follow-up by taking them to church on Sunday, because in doing so you are just dismantling the very thing you are trying to teach them. Take responsibility for your own kids - and that means opening your own eyes in order to do that. I know a lot of xtian parents who home school their kids these days, and it's really kinda frightening when that kid gets turned loose in the real world. They simply are not prepared for the harsh reality that exists outside of their narrow cult - and that is WHOLLY and ENTIRELY and 100% the fault of the parents, who have indoctrinated them into THEIR cult because of their own crazy belief systems.

Harsh? Maybe, but it is what it is. Frankly, I'm tired of being asked to look out for everybody else's feelings and cultural taboos and belief systems, when it is patently obvious that those taboos and belief systems are PRECISELY what is responsible for all the crap going on in the world today. Rid the world of organized religion and you would see people forced to begin formulating their OWN ideas about spirituality - looking INSIDE themselves instead of hooking their intent into the cult-du-jour. Without the required agreements that stem from organized religion (and politics, for that matter), the mind is freed to find its own balance, to seek its own level. And this is especially true of children. So if people are afraid their kids might be suckered into a cult, they need to look at their own lives and determine to what extent they are programming their children to do just that...

**********

This is more or less where my first dialogue with Mel ended for the evening. He is encouraging me to allow him to post two additional "interviews," but I have not yet decided whether there is any reason whatsoever to do so. Even our opinions and our speeches are, in the end, dust in the wind. That being the case, I think I'll go for a walk today and work a bit on my screenplay, and sit with my weenie dog on my lap. The rest takes care of itself.

Finding Your Voice

A lot has happened over the last year on my forums, and on various other lists & groups to which I belong. We've talked about enlightenment, the matrix, Plato's cave, transmogrification, vampires, empires, con jobs, snow jobs, hand jobs, and the meaning of life. Sometimes our talks have been pleasant and reasonable. Other times, not so. And at times of late, I find myself asking... Where are we going with this? What do we hope to accomplish here? Or on any forum or list or group, for that matter. Even if we were all to come to a single agreeement - God is a giant potato and we will all be freedom fries in the afterlife which is promised to us by The Great Spud - so what? Really. So what? Where does the agreement get us? What does it do for us? Does it advance us, or does it actually limit us? Are we here seeking freedom, or just arguing for our limitations?

When I initially opened my first forum - "The Quantum Forum" - it was largely for my own assimilation... a place where I could bounce my ideas off of others on a similar journey; challenge my beliefs to the core through direct interaction with other seekers who were wrestling with the same concepts; and essentially form a foundation of my own Knowledge. Not for any great purpose. Just to see if I know, even remotely, who I am. *shrugs* What I found over the years was that the foundation not only held - though it went through several modifications & structural changes, which I see as an ongoing evolution - but it gave me a far deeper understanding of the workings of "life" than I ever would have believed possible. Understanding "the shaman's double" led to a much broader understanding of how the energy of consciousness functions, for example, and with that understanding, I was able to formulate what amounts to a personal "plan" for burning with the fire from within, slipping past the eagle, and all those other tired old cliches which have run the high risk of becoming "just words" due to overexposure. But no matter. We all know what we're talking about... Experience>Assimilation>Knowledge>New Experience>Deeper Assimilation>Evolving Knowledge. And so the cycle goes. And all plans are subject to last minute revisions.

Lately, however, I've found myself facing some rather serious dilemmas in this whole thing. Nowhere to start except in the middle. I get about 20-50 emails per day on an average, most coming through the Quantum Shaman website. While most are "simple" in the sense that they may be someone just looking for a word of encouragement, or some acknowledgement from a stranger on the internet that they aren't alone in their experiences, there are some that are of a far more serious nature. Over the past month, I've gotten emails from one person who is at the brink of despair with health issues; another from a young man who has lost everything - home, family, career - and wants to know how he may apply his path to regaining his balance; another from someone having what she herself described as "a crisis of faith regarding the Toltec path"; another from someone wanting to come live at my house and be my "apprentice"; and dozens more from people with issues that may appear far less serious to me, but are obviously every bit as serious to them.

Aside from ascertaining that these folks had exhausted all "normal" channels first (doctors, psychologists, or what-have-you), I used to ask myself what I could do to "help" these people. Now, I just write to them and hope that spirit/gnosis/nagual will open whatever "connection" is required so that my words might point them in the direction of whatever tool or understanding they are seeking. I never know, of course. All I can do is share my knowledge, share whatever tools I've found, and make sure the person I'm talking to knows that whatever "path" they are on is THEIR path - not mine. "Here - take these tools, do what you Will with them - just don't try to recreate my path (or anyone else's) because then all you're doing is building sets on the stage of the play." Frustrating thing is, even when I have said to some of them, "I can't help you - I don't have the knowledge you're looking for," many will come back with something along the lines of, "Then help me to get to the place where you CAN help me. Do I need to take a workshop? Do I need to read any particular books, attend any particular seminars?"

No. No. And no.

Sure, I have workshops available on my website. They may even be helpful in overcoming some programs, or gaining some new techniques for stalking oneself, but ultimately no workshop or seminar is going to instill in anybody any real Knowledge. These are just tools. Take all the workshops you like. Go to all the seminars you want. But at the end of the day, if it doesn't ASSIMILATE into your "life" - if it isn't who YOU are - then it's all just fingerpainting on the deck of Titanic while the boat is going down fast. Amusement. Entertainment. A do-ing that cannot substitute for simply BE-ING present in one's life from moment to moment - aware, awake, filled with simply the love of being alive.

And yet... "So how do I wake myself up?" many ask. "How do I stay awake? How can I do with MY double what you've done with yours?"

Maybe you can't. That's MY journey. Maybe it isn't your destiny at all. If it were, I suspect you'd be do-ing it - manifesting it, creating it, experiencing it - instead of LOOKING for it. So all I can say in that regard is the same thing that's been oft-repeated here over the years. There is no path to FOLLOW. There are no "gurus" who can show you the way to enlightenment. All you really need to do is ask yourself one question: What does your heart want to do? I'm not talking about the frilly emotional baggage that often gets associated with the phrase "path of heart". I'm talking about the nitty-gritty confrontation one does in one's own mirror. Do you want to be a stock broker or do you want to be a rock star? If you DO want to be a rock star - now here's where it gets tricky - do you have the ability, the commitment, and a sufficient presence of Will to actually bring this into being?

Ain't easy.

So what does that mean in the big picture? If our heart wants to be a rock star, but we have a voice like Alvin the Chipmunk, what to do? How do we apply the path of heart to our day to day lives? Do we work as a stock broker in the day and sing karaoke in the local pub at night? Maybe. If that's what satisfies your heart, then why not?



I always wanted to be a writer. Never was able to make a reasonable living at it for many reasons, but because it is the path of my heart, I write anyway. Too much for some to handle, I'm told. But ya know what? I ain't writing ANY of it for you. This is MY journey and MY path... get it? I started writing when I was about 11, on an old Royal typewriter that would cut your fingers to the bone if they slipped between the keys and down into the inner gazurkis. And in so many ways, THAT is how I created my double. THAT is how I summoned my own muse, and breathed him into being over the years. I don't expect anyone to understand that - and I certainly don't expect anyone to try to do it in the same way. Wouldn't work anyway, because it would be a recreation of someone else's path, rather than a crying out of the human heart into the void. If you want to meet your double - if that is TRULY the path of your heart - then you will DO what it takes to manifest that reality. For me, it was Star Trek and sci-fi and going out into the night and shaking my fist at the sky, saying to the empty place in my spirit, "If I can't come to you, I'll bring you to me!"

Shake your fist at the sky. Howl and dance. Do whatever it takes to manifest YOUR dream, but for the love of life, don't try to manifest someone else's! Carlos Castaneda didn't hold the patent on awakening. It's been going on for thousands of years and has taken as many forms. And I dare say that those who DO awaken will do it on their own terms, and not at the hands of any extant guru, yogi, swami, holyman or the like. Sure, those folk have some great tools to offer, but there comes that critical point when you have to hear the beat of YOUR heart and no one else's. Then, and only then, will you have the ability to BE the journey, instead of seeing yourself as some being ON a journey.

At least several times a month, via email, I have someone essentially say they want to "walk the magical path" - but ultimately I have found that really isn't so. Not really. What they usually want is to sit at the gates and peer in at whatever magical kingdom they BELIEVE they want, but most simply are not willing to take even the first step toward manifesting the desires of their own heart. Why? Many reasons. Too many to list, but just to name the most prominent, I would say the foreign installation itself stops them at the threshhold just by saying to them, "That's crazy! It's okay to dream it, but if you ever try to BE it, they'll lock you up & throw away the key!"

Fear, in other words. Fear of losing one's sanity. Fear of a permanent displacement of the assemblage point. Fear of loneliness. Whatever it is... it is fear. The internal dialogue. The consensus reality. The agreement. All of it. The checks & balances that hold us in stasis unless and until we simply DECIDE to wake up.

And here's the thing. For those people who DO only want to sit at the gates... That's okay. But if you TRULY want to live in what we've come to call "The Sorcerer's World" - you WILL. Nothing and no one will be able to stop you, for THAT is the path of your heart. That is where your world will come alive and fill every aspect of your life - no longer any "division" between your "spirituality" and your "real life persona." They will become one and the same - or that hollow, empty place will remain and you will continue to be just an actor in your own drama. And that, too, is okay... if it's what you choose.

But IF you want to find that wholeness, that "awakening" or shifting the AP into "the sorcerer's world", you will risk everything. Maybe you will even lose everything. When I first started this journey, Orlando warned that it would cost me my friends, my family, and any sense of "belonging" to the so-called "real world", and that has certainly turned out to be the case. Not because he said it would be so, but because that is where the journey has led over many years of experience and, at times, exhaustive effort on my part to prove him wrong! But, in the end, it is what it is.

Eyebrows raise, perhaps. "Is Della saying we should leave our families and join a cult?"

No. No. And no. If you think that, you need to clean out your ears.

What I AM saying is that in MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I have not found it possible (nor desirable) to attempt to maintain the polite facades required for "a normal life" - and that includes interaction with those who have tried to say to me over the years, "Can't you just be more positive? Can't you just be my friend and, by the way, here's the script for what I want you to say on any given occasion. Can't you just nod politely and pretend you agree with me? Can't you just be one of the guys? Can't you be this way or that way? Can't you be who **I** want you to be instead of who you are?"

No.

That's the price. And for most, it is too high. "Well, I want freedom, but if it means having to give up my family and friends, then I have to find some other way." Good - do so. Find another way! By all means! You have to do the path of YOUR heart! When Orlando said this journey would cost me everything, what he meant was that it would become a CHOICE for me - because, ultimately, the journey itself holds far more value to me than family gatherings and polite dinners with old friends to discuss who's fucking whom and the proper care & feeding of rugrats. Don't get me wrong - those things are of ultimate value to some. Maybe to most. But to ME, I just keep finding too many "Smiths" taking on the mantra of the consensus reality, striving as always to drag us back into the programs. Phantoms on the road to Ixtlan, we call them in Toltec terms. Rest assured - they are very real, and the lure is a phenomenal force. A sense of belonging. Even love. "Just let go of all of this silly stuff you write about, Della, and you can be one of us. We'll love you and warm you and give you milk & cookies before you go to bed, and we'll all be together like a big, happy family."

Anybody here ever seen a happy family? I haven't. Oh, I've seen a lot of pageants and pretenses, but in my neck of the woods, most families aren't really "happy" nearly as much as they are stuck with one another by default. But no matter. That's MY experience. It doesn't have to be yours.

I've had a strange and wonderful life. Hope it continues for a long, long time to come. Over the years, I've had some friends who have gazed in at my strange life, and wanted to be a part of it in some deeper way (whatever that means). They want to have the experinces I've had. Or they want me to "produce" Orlando for their amusement. Or they want to be "along for the ride" when I side-step this "reality" and enter a world where time goes missing and inorganic beings hold tea parties at the edge of the abyss. Yes, I've done these things. Yes, some of them are even documented. And yet... so what? They are, quite simply, MY experiences. Yes, I DO believe others can have similar experiences, but those experiences have to be the ones YOU create - not anything that has been created for you in books, or tales by the fires of eternity. Your experiences. Yours alone.

And, yes, I will tell you that the price is high.

And yet...

If it is who you ARE, no force in the universe can stop you. If it is who you ARE, there is no price at all. You will follow your heart even if it leads you into hell, because what you will find is that you are perhaps happiest when battling the forces of hell, rather than sitting around the fire toasting marshmallows with all your personal demons.

Find YOUR voice. Even if you sing like Alvin, it will be YOUR song. Maybe nobody will love you for it. Maybe nobody will hate you for it. Doesn't matter. It's still your song, and there is not another one like it in all the universe.

Be the journey.

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